Thursday, August 3rd: Tournaments are gay.
So I wrote before that one of the few misgivings I had about coming down to Australia was that the start of school down here conflicted with the World Series of Poker, where a few of my friends were playing this week (although to the best of my knowledge, they've all been knocked out of the main event by now, and they're only just now finishing day 2.) I really wish I could have played there, just for the fun experience, but -- in one of my few moments of life lucidity -- I chose school over poker.
I'm not all that bummed, though, because one of my long-standing beliefs is that tournament poker is one of the worst possible measures to assess actual poker skill, but we (or more accurately, the media) have put it up on this pedestal as the ultimate test of poker acumen. I have infinitely more respect for cash game players grinding out profits than I do for nearly anyone who pencils himself in as a poker shark on the basis of one or more big tourney scores. There's a myth out there, perpetuated over the last couple of years in the media, and it's the myth of the marquee poker professional; the one or two "name" players at every final table that TV poker commentators love to point to as evidence that, despite the luck factor in poker, the "cream" ultimately rises to the top. To quote Chris Rock in pretty much any stand-up set he's ever performed: "Please cut the f*@#!$% shit!" The fact of the matter is that the biggest reason for the presence of a few 'name players' at final tables these days is simply the law of large numbers. Think, for a moment, about how many pro poker players you could either name, or whose name/face you would recognize if you saw it...I think that number would probably be around 300 for me...hmmm...maybe that's a bit high...perhaps more like 200-250. Regardless, while TV commentators hurry to point out poker pro's X and Y at the 10-man final table, they discount altogether the hundreds -- yes HUNDREDS -- who have been knocked out to get the that point, whereas 8 complete donkeys remain.
It's easy, of course, to understand why the media has so much invested in perpetuating this myth: the viability of commercializing TV poker depends on it. Who, after all, wants to watch 10 complete unknowns play poker. No, much better to have a few professionals mixed in about whom you can really tell a story. After all, what makes a more compelling story line: Joe Blow, TV repairman battling and Bill Smith, insurance salesman, or Greg Raymer being seated with Mike Matusow, just a year removed from their memorable trash-talking / Matusow crying session in the 2004 WSOP. The popular media need us to believe in this myth of individual poker greatness in order to sell the people -- it's the people and the individual brands they create that boost ratings and sell advertising. I think it entirely possible that the best tournament poker player in the world today (the word "best" is somewhat ambiguous too, but let's just say it means the most technically proficient) has never won a major $5K+ tournament in his life. You may never have even heard of him/her. That's how much luck is involved in tournament poker.
Here's the problem. One of the most important (and at the same time difficult) concepts people need to grasp in order to play winning poker is variance, and just what constitutes the "long term". A popular question on poker bulletin boards is "Just how many hands do I need to play before I can trust my BB/100 number, or know that I'm definitely a winner or loser?" The answer given varies, but usually comes in somewhere between 40,000 and 100,000. I think one of the most insightful (and likely) responses, however, was given by the poster who claimed, somewhat controversially, that the actual number of hands one would need to play in order to establish one's "true" BB/100 was many, many times higher than the oft-quoted 50K - 100K. That poster actually had a sound mathematical basis for making that claim, which included considerations of standard deviation, risk of ruin, etc, etc, but the take-home point was that, in short, it simply takes a helluva lot of hands to reach "the long run". Nearly all poker players will die before ever coming close to approximating what their 'true BB/100' (that is, the BB/100 figure that their current playing skill/style would generate if continued to infinity) actually is. A lot of people have expressed admiration at the high BB/100 I've been able to sustain, but according to those calculations, my 'actual' BB/100 could vary by as much as 2 or 3 whole big bets / 100 from where it stands now (after 500K or so hands).
Anyway, why have I gotten distracted talking about all that long-run 'nonsense'? Because if you're suprised that 500,000 hands might still not yield all that precise a predictive future long-term winrate, do you honestly believe we can make any substantive determinations from the 1,000 or so that will determine this year's WSOP winner? 1,000 hands is nothing, and yet that's exactly what is going to decide who the media annoints as one of the best new poker players on the planet a week from now. How about the poker wunderkind-du-jour, Jeff Madsen who, at 21 years and 7 weeks just won 2 WSOP bracelets, and made 2 more final tables, out of the 6 WSOP events that he entered this year. Simply put, with fields as large as they are this year, that's probably the single most impressive feat in the history of the WSOP. Is Jeff good? Anyone want to drink the Kool-Aid? Not me. Again, I'm not picking on Jeff in particular, just on the folly of drawing conclusions from any time frame so short in duration. Had 1 or 2 of his all-in coin flips gone the other way, and he's back to community college, and you'd have never heard of him. Read his interview with Cardplayer Magazine here; actually an interesting read, if you ask me.
(First of all, I won't rag on the guy too hard, but "I also borrowed money from my college fund that my grandfather had put away for me. I got just enough money to play in six tournaments and make a run for the final event."?? What the F are that kid's parents thinking? -- alright, no more judgements for now.) This kid will now walk around the rest of his life -- yes the rest of his life -- believing he's a poker natural, because in his "long run", he simply had the exceptionally good fortune of having his "hot streak" come near the beginning of his poker career. Last year's WSOP winner, Joe Hachem, for example, will be a "winning poker player" the rest of his life. I'm not picking on him in particular (in fact, he seems like a really nice guy), but I cite him only because he's won the biggest single prize in the history of poker (until another unknown overtakes him in a couple weeks for $12Million). Does that make him good? How about the fact that he's now going to be seen sitting in the highest-stakes cash games at nearly every casino he visits? Are you impressed yet?
Long story short is it's pretty much impossible to ever reach the "long-run" in NL tournament play, and I'm just frustrated with the undue importance placed on individual tournament wins by the media and public at large. There are several very well-known poker pro's who have made a few big scores in NL tournaments, and thus have 7-figure bankrolls, who are, by all accounts, absolutely terrible players, from a technical standpoint. Whenever they sit in the "Big Game" at the Bellagio, the better cash game players lick their chops at the dead money that's sitting down. Is this post an indictment of all tournament professionals? I know it will be taken by some readers as such, but that's not the intention. A lot of the poker pro's themselves realize the razor thin +EV they actually have over even the worst of the worst in NL tournaments. How else do you explain the complaining that's coming more and more these days from pro's who lament that the WSOP fields are just getting "too big", and that the buy-in for the main event should be raised, or the # of entrants capped. From a purely EV standpoint, they should welcome each and every player who plays worse than they do in a given tournament field. But they don't. Instead a lot of them complain that it's becoming more or less impossible to navigate through the minefield of thousands of "internet donkeys." That counterintuitive line of reasoning is evidence of the relatively depressing realities of NL tournament play.
I'm not all that bummed, though, because one of my long-standing beliefs is that tournament poker is one of the worst possible measures to assess actual poker skill, but we (or more accurately, the media) have put it up on this pedestal as the ultimate test of poker acumen. I have infinitely more respect for cash game players grinding out profits than I do for nearly anyone who pencils himself in as a poker shark on the basis of one or more big tourney scores. There's a myth out there, perpetuated over the last couple of years in the media, and it's the myth of the marquee poker professional; the one or two "name" players at every final table that TV poker commentators love to point to as evidence that, despite the luck factor in poker, the "cream" ultimately rises to the top. To quote Chris Rock in pretty much any stand-up set he's ever performed: "Please cut the f*@#!$% shit!" The fact of the matter is that the biggest reason for the presence of a few 'name players' at final tables these days is simply the law of large numbers. Think, for a moment, about how many pro poker players you could either name, or whose name/face you would recognize if you saw it...I think that number would probably be around 300 for me...hmmm...maybe that's a bit high...perhaps more like 200-250. Regardless, while TV commentators hurry to point out poker pro's X and Y at the 10-man final table, they discount altogether the hundreds -- yes HUNDREDS -- who have been knocked out to get the that point, whereas 8 complete donkeys remain.
It's easy, of course, to understand why the media has so much invested in perpetuating this myth: the viability of commercializing TV poker depends on it. Who, after all, wants to watch 10 complete unknowns play poker. No, much better to have a few professionals mixed in about whom you can really tell a story. After all, what makes a more compelling story line: Joe Blow, TV repairman battling and Bill Smith, insurance salesman, or Greg Raymer being seated with Mike Matusow, just a year removed from their memorable trash-talking / Matusow crying session in the 2004 WSOP. The popular media need us to believe in this myth of individual poker greatness in order to sell the people -- it's the people and the individual brands they create that boost ratings and sell advertising. I think it entirely possible that the best tournament poker player in the world today (the word "best" is somewhat ambiguous too, but let's just say it means the most technically proficient) has never won a major $5K+ tournament in his life. You may never have even heard of him/her. That's how much luck is involved in tournament poker.
Here's the problem. One of the most important (and at the same time difficult) concepts people need to grasp in order to play winning poker is variance, and just what constitutes the "long term". A popular question on poker bulletin boards is "Just how many hands do I need to play before I can trust my BB/100 number, or know that I'm definitely a winner or loser?" The answer given varies, but usually comes in somewhere between 40,000 and 100,000. I think one of the most insightful (and likely) responses, however, was given by the poster who claimed, somewhat controversially, that the actual number of hands one would need to play in order to establish one's "true" BB/100 was many, many times higher than the oft-quoted 50K - 100K. That poster actually had a sound mathematical basis for making that claim, which included considerations of standard deviation, risk of ruin, etc, etc, but the take-home point was that, in short, it simply takes a helluva lot of hands to reach "the long run". Nearly all poker players will die before ever coming close to approximating what their 'true BB/100' (that is, the BB/100 figure that their current playing skill/style would generate if continued to infinity) actually is. A lot of people have expressed admiration at the high BB/100 I've been able to sustain, but according to those calculations, my 'actual' BB/100 could vary by as much as 2 or 3 whole big bets / 100 from where it stands now (after 500K or so hands).
Anyway, why have I gotten distracted talking about all that long-run 'nonsense'? Because if you're suprised that 500,000 hands might still not yield all that precise a predictive future long-term winrate, do you honestly believe we can make any substantive determinations from the 1,000 or so that will determine this year's WSOP winner? 1,000 hands is nothing, and yet that's exactly what is going to decide who the media annoints as one of the best new poker players on the planet a week from now. How about the poker wunderkind-du-jour, Jeff Madsen who, at 21 years and 7 weeks just won 2 WSOP bracelets, and made 2 more final tables, out of the 6 WSOP events that he entered this year. Simply put, with fields as large as they are this year, that's probably the single most impressive feat in the history of the WSOP. Is Jeff good? Anyone want to drink the Kool-Aid? Not me. Again, I'm not picking on Jeff in particular, just on the folly of drawing conclusions from any time frame so short in duration. Had 1 or 2 of his all-in coin flips gone the other way, and he's back to community college, and you'd have never heard of him. Read his interview with Cardplayer Magazine here; actually an interesting read, if you ask me.
(First of all, I won't rag on the guy too hard, but "I also borrowed money from my college fund that my grandfather had put away for me. I got just enough money to play in six tournaments and make a run for the final event."?? What the F are that kid's parents thinking? -- alright, no more judgements for now.) This kid will now walk around the rest of his life -- yes the rest of his life -- believing he's a poker natural, because in his "long run", he simply had the exceptionally good fortune of having his "hot streak" come near the beginning of his poker career. Last year's WSOP winner, Joe Hachem, for example, will be a "winning poker player" the rest of his life. I'm not picking on him in particular (in fact, he seems like a really nice guy), but I cite him only because he's won the biggest single prize in the history of poker (until another unknown overtakes him in a couple weeks for $12Million). Does that make him good? How about the fact that he's now going to be seen sitting in the highest-stakes cash games at nearly every casino he visits? Are you impressed yet?
Long story short is it's pretty much impossible to ever reach the "long-run" in NL tournament play, and I'm just frustrated with the undue importance placed on individual tournament wins by the media and public at large. There are several very well-known poker pro's who have made a few big scores in NL tournaments, and thus have 7-figure bankrolls, who are, by all accounts, absolutely terrible players, from a technical standpoint. Whenever they sit in the "Big Game" at the Bellagio, the better cash game players lick their chops at the dead money that's sitting down. Is this post an indictment of all tournament professionals? I know it will be taken by some readers as such, but that's not the intention. A lot of the poker pro's themselves realize the razor thin +EV they actually have over even the worst of the worst in NL tournaments. How else do you explain the complaining that's coming more and more these days from pro's who lament that the WSOP fields are just getting "too big", and that the buy-in for the main event should be raised, or the # of entrants capped. From a purely EV standpoint, they should welcome each and every player who plays worse than they do in a given tournament field. But they don't. Instead a lot of them complain that it's becoming more or less impossible to navigate through the minefield of thousands of "internet donkeys." That counterintuitive line of reasoning is evidence of the relatively depressing realities of NL tournament play.




22 Comments:
I agree that a tournament is not a very good way of determining the "world's best" poker player, but what are you going to do, run cash games for 2 days? Having the tournament provides a stream of fish that will take the plunge online too (hence providing you with your income).
What does EV stand for? Personally, I think it takes as much skill (or luck) to be a winning player in either cash games or tournament games. btw I just found your blog a few days ago, its really good.
EV = Expected Value
Amen to that man, but the only thing good about tournaments is the winners who take their shots at cashgames and lose their pants in the process.
I'm kind of ashamed to admit it, but I wish I was good at tournamnets... that way I could be in the spotlight.... theres no glory in cashgames you know!
Regarding taking money out of Jeff's college fund. He is going to be a senior next year and there was more than enough money to cover his last year of education. So taking money out of the college fund was not putting his college education at risk. I think grand daddy had put enough away for the Ivy leagues, but Jeff only made the state school leagues.
An unfortunate rant that is akin to the countless online "experts" who berate the fish at low limit tables for unorthodox play. My point is, who really cares if the kid is going to be eaten alive at the big cash game at the Bellagio or wherever? The toxic comments on the 2+2 forum in response to the Cardplayer article mentioned in your post underline the infernal jealousy that pervades poker. The kid was staked by his parents. Big deal; staking happens all the time. The kid got lucky at an opportune time in his life. Big deal; luck is a factor in short term success at this game.
You are correct in postulating that tournaments can produce a distorted picture of excellence, but this is pervasive throughout sport. The desire to see sporting competitions conducted in the tournament format speaks of something fundamental to the human condition. Tournaments have a history that go back to the days before the ancient Greeks. Why is the public more interested in who wins a major tournament than in who is touted by his peers as the best player of the game?
As a NLHE player I have great respect for those like yourself who can grind out hundreds of thousands of dollars of winnings at the limit form of the game. However, when it is all said and done, I am only concerned about my own game and my own winnings.
Recently I observed Chris Moneymaker playing on Pokerstars at the $5000 NL tables. After he left, there was chat that reiterated the view that he is a fish. Later Joe Hachem joined the tables whereupon one of the other players roundly abused him, calling him a fish and directing a string of obscene language at him. I am glad to report that Joe conducted himself like a true gentleman and simply didn't respond even though it was otherwise obvious that Joe still had his chat turned on.
Poker, like chess, attracts people of high intelligence who, as a function of that intelligence, have the ability to construct cogent arguments that desecrate the skill and success of other players. The tall poppy syndrome is another manifestation of the human condition. In this post you have come perilously close to allowing yourself to be an instrument of that syndrome.
I tried my best to distance myself from the "Geez, this guy sucks, I can't believe people think he's good" theme, knowing that some people were still going to interpret it as such.
This isn't about any particular player (btw, I didn't read many toxic comments about Madsen...most people seem to be rather impressed with his feat; I am too.) Some people seem to live just to take others down a peg; I've written before about my disdain for those who see the best way to make their building the tallest in town simply cutting down everyone else's (what I assume you're referring to with the 'tall poppy' language.) This isn't about tearing any one individual down, because you're right: at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter how they get there, or how they stack up to tough cash game competition. It's more an indictment (although hardly a flawless one, I concede) of the disconnect between the recognition people get, and their true level of ability. Don't you find it curious that Chris Moneymaker might have as much if not more name recognition as Phil Ivey among the general public? No point in my going off on some Nihilist rant about it...just pointing it out.
I like your analogy to sporting events, because I think it illustrates all the more succinctly the difference between poker and other competitive endeavors. I think poker stands heads and shoulders apart from any professoinal sport with respect to the luck factor, which is exactly why I think it's so interesting to talk about these things. Every year there will be arguments in the NBA, NFL, or any pro league about whether the team that won it all was the "best" team, but in those true sports, it's always undeniable that the winning team played better when it counted most. Now while you can extrapolate that line of reasoning to poker to some extent, it still just doesn't account for the overwhelming pure chance involved. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I don't think there's really any kind of argument to be won here, nor a right and wrong point of view. Just thinkin...
oh, never mind about the 'no toxic comments' thing...i see the thread is now rife with them, hehe. It only had 2 replies when i made my post.
A few words subsequent to my 8.48am comment in the light of the blog administrator's reply.
One of the reasons that I avoid the 2+2 forums, which harks back to an earlier blog post by you, is that they are filled with a kind of crap that is often designed to be an ego trip for those who reply to the posters. Often the information or advice is ill informed and is frequently tainted with a "you are a complete donkey for asking the question" attitude. In the last few hours the Madsen thread has elicited a large minority of posts critical of his success as well as posts that suggest that the kid should be given the benefit of any doubt about his abilities.
What concerned me about your post in this blog was that in the process of providing a perfectly good argument about a tournament being a mathematically unsound sample by which to rate a player's ability, I think that you jettisoned SOME of the generosity of spirit that you have otherwise demonstrated throughout your blog. Frankly, the rapaciousness of your arguments and some of your comments took me by surprise. It was not unreasonable to infer, your protestations notwithstanding, that your analysis could be seen as being ultimately critical of Madsen’s success on the basis that it was a statistical aberration.
It is with great kindness that I offer you the following view. Mate, you have some unresolved issues relating to the WSOP. You have mentioned the WSOP somewhat wistfully on a number of occasions. My advice, which I note that you have not asked for, is for you to plan a campaign for WSOP 2007 and go and make your mark publicly on the world of poker in a way that you are apparently unwilling to do in the field of law.
You are correct in asserting that there is no argument to be won or lost here. Like you, I’m just thinkin....that’s all.
Much peace, love and respect to you bro.
P.S. “Tall poppy syndrome” is an Australian colloquialism, but you got the gist of it.
i hate to be a nit, but you said the opposite of what i think you meant:
in·fin·i·tes·i·mal - Immeasurably or incalculably minute
maybe infinitely?
anyway, great blog.
kuso
damnit; i knew something didn't seem write when i wrote that word...it was 3am here when i wrote it. i'll fix it.
Sorry your not winning tournaments.
I agree with the 8:48 PM Anonymous reply. I think the variance of tournaments is a lot more obvious than the blog admin makes it out to be. But at the same time, if it were possible to show the exact probability distribution of each tournament player (where the left most point is finishing out of the money), the best players are still going to be far more skewed to the right, and I bet it would not take nearly as many tournaments as you think to get a credible confidence interval.
I understand what you're saying in that there will always be some that slip through the cracks and make their p.d. appear farther to the right than it is. However, I think the previous response summed up why that does not frustrate me personally.
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This is the ranking of the skill of poker players from worst to best.
#1 - Worst of the worst poker players - are NL Hold'em Tournament players, that includes multi table tourneys, WSOP, and sit-n-gos.
#2 - Worst poker players - are NL Hold 'em cash players.
#3 - OK poker players - are LIMIT Hold 'em players.
#4 - Good poker players - are 7 Card STUD limit players.
#5 - The best poker players - are pot limit 7 card STUD players.
All you NL Hold 'em players are mostly donkeys that learned from TV. And very few of you have any legitimate skill.
Come to the STUD tables Hold'em players so we can take all of your money.
NL Hold'em is not a competition of poker... it's a competition of luck. TV, "Rounders", and "Lucky You" steer you into playing a game that has very little to do with skill and romanticize the game that sucks and is mostly luck.
NL Hold'em is dominated by "coin flip" situations which has nothing to do with skill what-so-ever.
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