Sunday, March 19th: Cruise over
PPM - Day 1
Boarded cruise ship, and I'll say this. I hate Party Poker with every fiber of my being, but they've done a pretty damn good job putting this thing together. The cruise ship is gigantic and really really nice, and the 4 meals I had this first day were all excellent. I am going to get uber-fat on this trip. I suppose, however, that it's really Holland American and CardPlayer Cruises who have been great -- I'll reserve judgement on Party Poker until after I see how the tournament and side games are run.
After settling in, I attended a 2+2 cocktail party put together by one 2p2'er, which was pretty well attended -- maybe 40 people or so. I didn't really know any other 2p2'er by face or name...just by their posts, and I'm not all that active a contributor there anyway (at 1,500 posts, I guess I was still on the lower end of those attending). I have to say that I was expecting a far more socially inept group of internet nerds, and told my cruise guest (who isn't even a poker player, let alone a 2p2'er) to expect a pretty lame gathering. But I was wrong -- had a good time, and the 2p2'ers there were pretty down-to-earth and more or less normal. Good showing!
At night, I played a couple hours of 20/40 and the competition was just awful...pretty much what you'd expect for a bunch of internet qualifiers. Unfortunately, the rumor that Phil Ivey had bought into the tournament last minute appears to be just a rumor -- the only well-known pro's I think i heard people mention were aboard are Barry Greenstein, something Bellande, Michael Gracz (who won it last year) and a few other names I recognized. Everyone's been extraordinarily friendly thus far -- I guess that's what you get when you meet people on their vacations...just good moods all around. My first day in the tournament isn't until Day 3 -- I'm still not optimistic about my chances...I've thought about it quite a bit recently and I just don't think, as I wrote before, that my advantage over the field is enough to separate myself from the pack in just 300 hands, or however many I'm going to get in in the tournament.
PPM - Day 2
Really enjoying this thing so far -- the food is outstanding, and all the cruise staff are extremely friendly and accomodating. We've even got a pretty nice little cabin, although I'm jealous of all the 2p2'ers who reported getting randomly upgraded to the nicer suites. I also started to wonder as I was playing in the cash games last night just how much of my objectively impressive winrate online is due to my poker skill, and how much of it is due to maxing out all the technological advantages that are part and parcel of online play. I mean, they're spreading 100/200 and 200/400 games here, and they had a ton of people on the list for them. They didn't appeal to me at all for a few reasons: a) I didn't bring all that much money, b) I came here to have a fun cruise experience, not to waste too much time playing poker, other than the tournament, and c) even if the above 2 weren't true, I'm simply not convinced I have an overwhelming skill advantage over the type of guy who sits down at a 100/200 live game. I mean it's LIMIT for god sakes - once you reach a certain level, there simply isn't as much difference in skill between the excellent players and the expert players (another reason I'm not all that optimistic about my chances in the tourney tomorrow). So I look at my 3.5BB/100 winrate over my last few hundred thousand hands, and I have come to the conclusion that I owe a ton of it to maximizing my use and understanding of things like PokerTracker, PAHUD, mining applications (before they were incapacitated by the latest Party upgrade, although I'm aware of a few grey-market mining app's that some people are producing). I'm somewhat of a computer nerd, and -- in my prime; aka the time I took off from school for poker a year ago -- I devoted probably 5 to 10 hours / week to really understanding
PPM - Day 3
No happy endings this time around: I'm out of the tournament. 260 people played on the second day, and we were playing down until around 100 people were left -- I busted out with around 140 remaining. I'm very happy with the way I played; just didn't get the cards. We started out with T-10,000 in chips. I started out winning exactly 0 hands out of the first 50 or so that we played, but then bounced around between T-7000 and T-12,000 for the first few levels of blinds. I played around 240 hands and the best hand I was dealt was a pair of Jacks (and a few AQs). Didn't see QQ, KK, AA, or AK all day so like I said, I'm very happy with how I played -- really maximized what few playable hands I had. Well, the preceding is only actually true for the first 239 hands. Lamenting the fact that I had had to make do without any premium hands, I was finally fortunate enough to look down and see Aces with the blinds at T-300/T-600 (playing T-600/T-1,200), with my card-deadness having me down to only T-8,200 in chips. Pretty weak older guy raised UTG w/ Ks,Ts, I three-bet from the SB - flop came Js, 3h, 4s, and the rest his history. So I went out with Aces, which is the way to go, I suppose. Like I said, I played nearly as well as I could have without being dealt any premium hands -- I worry that I might have played a little weak-tight owing to some initial nerves; out of the 240 hands, my stats were probably down near around 15/9. and only won 14 or 15 hands, fewer than 5 of them actually going to showdown. I hit one flush, but beyond that never even had more than one pair. Of the 25 or so people I played, 2 of them impressed me, but the rest were just a bunch of 14/7 tighties. Anyway, that's the end of that; kinda bummed right now, but I'm sure our stops in Jamaica tomorrow and Grand Cayman the next will help me get over it.
PPM - Day 6
Final table just ended with 2p2'er Mike Schneider (aka "Schneids") besting Kenna James heads-up for the title. A gang of 20 2p2'ers rushed the stage when it was all over to congratulate him. I'll post some pictures when I get the time. I'm happy to report I played a total of only 4 hours of poker this cruise (other than the tournament) -- there was just all too much I wanted to do (and too much food to eat) to waste time in the poker room. Plus, this little break will be good for me. Has just been a great trip so far. Last poker-related tidbit I'll write for now is something that just reinforces things I've written about before: the perils of relying too heavily on so-called 'expert' advice from bulletin boards (read: 2+2). I've listend to altogether too much hand analysis this trip. It's incredibly annoying, by the way to overhear 20 conversations per hour that start out "Dude, so I had XYZ under the gun and riase, and this guy...blah, blah, blah". Anyway, although I've written that the 2p2'ers that I've met this trip have been quite affable and friendly, I've heard a ton of absolutely absurd hand analysis out of the mouths of otherwise "respected" 2p2'ers. The most frequent flaw (in advice I've overheard here, and read on 2+2) is this: everyone seems to approach hand analysis wondering "What action on my part gives me the greatest chance to win this hand?". When of course that question is preposterous. The winning player asks himself "What action on my part will maximize my expected value in situations like this one in the long run?" So you've got tons of posts advocating hopeless bluff check-raising and 3-betting against opponents who will hardly EVER fold given their previous action from the hand. One high-posting 2+2'er actually engaged another in a debate over whether it was correct to 5-bet the river heads-up or just fold his draw that had obviously missed. OK - I guess only re-raising in that situation gives you any folding equity (e.g. chance your opponent will fold), and I suppose is technically the only chance you actually stand of winning THAT hand -- but that's just flushing money down the drain. All you need to do is find somewhere to save one big bet every hundred or so hands to drive your winrate through the roof -- from 1.0 to 2.0, 1.5 to 2.5, or whatever. The difference between those two numbers may seem like the difference between a very good player and an expert, but in limit hold'em, it's just one tiny little big bet saved per 100. Find it.
I'm by no means bashing 2+2. It's helped immensely in my development. By all means, read the 2p2 forums, post your own hands for analysis, and read the responses with an open mind. But after that, USE YOUR OWN GOD-GIVEN ANALYTICAL CAPABILITIES. One of the biggest steps forward my game ever took was when I learned to disregard the overwhelming volume of bullshit that flows so freely on the 2p2 forums, which by the way are populated mostly by 18 to 22 year olds. Not that 18 to 22 year olds can't be excellent player (see "Schneids" above). But understand that the anonymity of the internet unfortunately allows people with all of 6-12 months of poker under their belt to offer hand analysis as if it were given to them by God himself. You've got to learn to parse the good information from the BS.
Boarded cruise ship, and I'll say this. I hate Party Poker with every fiber of my being, but they've done a pretty damn good job putting this thing together. The cruise ship is gigantic and really really nice, and the 4 meals I had this first day were all excellent. I am going to get uber-fat on this trip. I suppose, however, that it's really Holland American and CardPlayer Cruises who have been great -- I'll reserve judgement on Party Poker until after I see how the tournament and side games are run.
After settling in, I attended a 2+2 cocktail party put together by one 2p2'er, which was pretty well attended -- maybe 40 people or so. I didn't really know any other 2p2'er by face or name...just by their posts, and I'm not all that active a contributor there anyway (at 1,500 posts, I guess I was still on the lower end of those attending). I have to say that I was expecting a far more socially inept group of internet nerds, and told my cruise guest (who isn't even a poker player, let alone a 2p2'er) to expect a pretty lame gathering. But I was wrong -- had a good time, and the 2p2'ers there were pretty down-to-earth and more or less normal. Good showing!
At night, I played a couple hours of 20/40 and the competition was just awful...pretty much what you'd expect for a bunch of internet qualifiers. Unfortunately, the rumor that Phil Ivey had bought into the tournament last minute appears to be just a rumor -- the only well-known pro's I think i heard people mention were aboard are Barry Greenstein, something Bellande, Michael Gracz (who won it last year) and a few other names I recognized. Everyone's been extraordinarily friendly thus far -- I guess that's what you get when you meet people on their vacations...just good moods all around. My first day in the tournament isn't until Day 3 -- I'm still not optimistic about my chances...I've thought about it quite a bit recently and I just don't think, as I wrote before, that my advantage over the field is enough to separate myself from the pack in just 300 hands, or however many I'm going to get in in the tournament.
PPM - Day 2
Really enjoying this thing so far -- the food is outstanding, and all the cruise staff are extremely friendly and accomodating. We've even got a pretty nice little cabin, although I'm jealous of all the 2p2'ers who reported getting randomly upgraded to the nicer suites. I also started to wonder as I was playing in the cash games last night just how much of my objectively impressive winrate online is due to my poker skill, and how much of it is due to maxing out all the technological advantages that are part and parcel of online play. I mean, they're spreading 100/200 and 200/400 games here, and they had a ton of people on the list for them. They didn't appeal to me at all for a few reasons: a) I didn't bring all that much money, b) I came here to have a fun cruise experience, not to waste too much time playing poker, other than the tournament, and c) even if the above 2 weren't true, I'm simply not convinced I have an overwhelming skill advantage over the type of guy who sits down at a 100/200 live game. I mean it's LIMIT for god sakes - once you reach a certain level, there simply isn't as much difference in skill between the excellent players and the expert players (another reason I'm not all that optimistic about my chances in the tourney tomorrow). So I look at my 3.5BB/100 winrate over my last few hundred thousand hands, and I have come to the conclusion that I owe a ton of it to maximizing my use and understanding of things like PokerTracker, PAHUD, mining applications (before they were incapacitated by the latest Party upgrade, although I'm aware of a few grey-market mining app's that some people are producing). I'm somewhat of a computer nerd, and -- in my prime; aka the time I took off from school for poker a year ago -- I devoted probably 5 to 10 hours / week to really understanding
PPM - Day 3
No happy endings this time around: I'm out of the tournament. 260 people played on the second day, and we were playing down until around 100 people were left -- I busted out with around 140 remaining. I'm very happy with the way I played; just didn't get the cards. We started out with T-10,000 in chips. I started out winning exactly 0 hands out of the first 50 or so that we played, but then bounced around between T-7000 and T-12,000 for the first few levels of blinds. I played around 240 hands and the best hand I was dealt was a pair of Jacks (and a few AQs). Didn't see QQ, KK, AA, or AK all day so like I said, I'm very happy with how I played -- really maximized what few playable hands I had. Well, the preceding is only actually true for the first 239 hands. Lamenting the fact that I had had to make do without any premium hands, I was finally fortunate enough to look down and see Aces with the blinds at T-300/T-600 (playing T-600/T-1,200), with my card-deadness having me down to only T-8,200 in chips. Pretty weak older guy raised UTG w/ Ks,Ts, I three-bet from the SB - flop came Js, 3h, 4s, and the rest his history. So I went out with Aces, which is the way to go, I suppose. Like I said, I played nearly as well as I could have without being dealt any premium hands -- I worry that I might have played a little weak-tight owing to some initial nerves; out of the 240 hands, my stats were probably down near around 15/9. and only won 14 or 15 hands, fewer than 5 of them actually going to showdown. I hit one flush, but beyond that never even had more than one pair. Of the 25 or so people I played, 2 of them impressed me, but the rest were just a bunch of 14/7 tighties. Anyway, that's the end of that; kinda bummed right now, but I'm sure our stops in Jamaica tomorrow and Grand Cayman the next will help me get over it.
PPM - Day 6
Final table just ended with 2p2'er Mike Schneider (aka "Schneids") besting Kenna James heads-up for the title. A gang of 20 2p2'ers rushed the stage when it was all over to congratulate him. I'll post some pictures when I get the time. I'm happy to report I played a total of only 4 hours of poker this cruise (other than the tournament) -- there was just all too much I wanted to do (and too much food to eat) to waste time in the poker room. Plus, this little break will be good for me. Has just been a great trip so far. Last poker-related tidbit I'll write for now is something that just reinforces things I've written about before: the perils of relying too heavily on so-called 'expert' advice from bulletin boards (read: 2+2). I've listend to altogether too much hand analysis this trip. It's incredibly annoying, by the way to overhear 20 conversations per hour that start out "Dude, so I had XYZ under the gun and riase, and this guy...blah, blah, blah". Anyway, although I've written that the 2p2'ers that I've met this trip have been quite affable and friendly, I've heard a ton of absolutely absurd hand analysis out of the mouths of otherwise "respected" 2p2'ers. The most frequent flaw (in advice I've overheard here, and read on 2+2) is this: everyone seems to approach hand analysis wondering "What action on my part gives me the greatest chance to win this hand?". When of course that question is preposterous. The winning player asks himself "What action on my part will maximize my expected value in situations like this one in the long run?" So you've got tons of posts advocating hopeless bluff check-raising and 3-betting against opponents who will hardly EVER fold given their previous action from the hand. One high-posting 2+2'er actually engaged another in a debate over whether it was correct to 5-bet the river heads-up or just fold his draw that had obviously missed. OK - I guess only re-raising in that situation gives you any folding equity (e.g. chance your opponent will fold), and I suppose is technically the only chance you actually stand of winning THAT hand -- but that's just flushing money down the drain. All you need to do is find somewhere to save one big bet every hundred or so hands to drive your winrate through the roof -- from 1.0 to 2.0, 1.5 to 2.5, or whatever. The difference between those two numbers may seem like the difference between a very good player and an expert, but in limit hold'em, it's just one tiny little big bet saved per 100. Find it.
I'm by no means bashing 2+2. It's helped immensely in my development. By all means, read the 2p2 forums, post your own hands for analysis, and read the responses with an open mind. But after that, USE YOUR OWN GOD-GIVEN ANALYTICAL CAPABILITIES. One of the biggest steps forward my game ever took was when I learned to disregard the overwhelming volume of bullshit that flows so freely on the 2p2 forums, which by the way are populated mostly by 18 to 22 year olds. Not that 18 to 22 year olds can't be excellent player (see "Schneids" above). But understand that the anonymity of the internet unfortunately allows people with all of 6-12 months of poker under their belt to offer hand analysis as if it were given to them by God himself. You've got to learn to parse the good information from the BS.
posted by Blog Administrator at 12:47 PM
8 Comments:
"The most frequent flaw (in advice I've overheard here, and read on 2+2) is this: everyone seems to approach hand analysis wondering "What action on my part gives me the greatest chance to win this hand?". When of course that question is preposterous. The winning player asks himself "What action on my part will maximize my expected value in situations like this one in the long run?"
I've really been thinking about this lately too. Soooooo many responses to posted hands (especially ones which involve a good draw) focus on finding creative ways to make people fold. I've fallen into this trap somewhat, and I think it has really hurt my game.
The last question you asked in the above quote is the correct one by far, not "how do I get villain to fold?"
Just wondering if you would disclose your twoplustwo username so that I can read some of your posts.
Sorry to hear you didn't place higher in the tourney - keep up the great blog!
I'm teddyFBI on the 2+2 forums.
Another Ivy grad here. Man you have had an incredible run. I'm still sweating things out at 1/2. Just curious about your learning curve. When did you go from just playing by the book to understanding the game. What helped you improve the most?
dbldwn22:
The answer to your question has already been posted...and probably would be hard to summarize in a quick post.
It is WELL WORTH YOUR TIME to start at the beginning of this blog and read all of it. I know that sounds absurd - I thought it was too the first time someone suggested it to me, but I'm so glad I did now.
Thanks dbldwn22, you sum up how i feel about that question accurately.
Heck, just print all 30 pages of it out and read it on the can or something -- I wouldn't suggest it to people unless I thought it was worthwhile.
"All you need to do is find somewhere to save one big bet every hundred or so hands to drive your winrate through the roof -- from 1.0 to 2.0, 1.5 to 2.5, or whatever."
This sticked to my eye... The mistakes you make in limit hold'em are hardly ever worth one full bb, right? If there is a tiny chanche that your hand is good at a big pot it doesn't cost full bb in the long run calling it (even though it can still be a mistake).
Btw why did you jump directly from 5-10 to 15-30 IIRC? Why skip the 10-20? Thanks, nice blog!
Pows: The common thought when I jumped to 15/30 was that the 5/10 and 10/20 full games were just really tight, but the 15/30 (the highest Party spread back in the good old days) was full of crazy loose fish. So the smart money was on skipping those intermediate levels.
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